I wasn't planning on writing anything about Dean Frenkel, whom the Age has described as an "expert speech analyst and vocal instructor" and who has released recently released a book titled Evolution of speech. I'm in a fairly remote place in India, without constant electricity and I've been down with a cold. I don't want to waste my time on the internet on this guy.
But I am angry. I just read Mr Frenkel's reply to a post by Aidan Wilson on Crikey's language blog Fully (sic) that criticises his recent claims and book.
I don't care what Mr Frenkel's qualifications are or what his educational background is. I *really* don't care that he's not a linguist or speech pathologist (I am aware of the hubris of many a linguist). But he writes about topics and make bold claims that even linguists would not have any confidence talking about, and worse, makes claims that can be easily disproved.
For instance, he writes:
It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that whistling as a child helps to train the articulation of ‘W’s for later in life. How does [Wilson] think the fine muscles of the lips are trained?
How is it 'perfectly reasonable' to suggest this?
The 'w' sound in English involves a few things: (1) pulmonic egressive air stream (air coming from the lungs); (2) a vibrating glottis; (3) the back of the tongue moving towards the velum; and (4) rounding of the lips.
Now I've never had problems producing a 'w' sound, which requires the movement of the lips. Incidentally, I've never had trouble producing a 'b' sound, or 'p' sound, which also require the movement of the lips.
But for the life of me, I cannot whistle.
But I am angry. I just read Mr Frenkel's reply to a post by Aidan Wilson on Crikey's language blog Fully (sic) that criticises his recent claims and book.
I don't care what Mr Frenkel's qualifications are or what his educational background is. I *really* don't care that he's not a linguist or speech pathologist (I am aware of the hubris of many a linguist). But he writes about topics and make bold claims that even linguists would not have any confidence talking about, and worse, makes claims that can be easily disproved.
For instance, he writes:
It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that whistling as a child helps to train the articulation of ‘W’s for later in life. How does [Wilson] think the fine muscles of the lips are trained?
How is it 'perfectly reasonable' to suggest this?
The 'w' sound in English involves a few things: (1) pulmonic egressive air stream (air coming from the lungs); (2) a vibrating glottis; (3) the back of the tongue moving towards the velum; and (4) rounding of the lips.
Now I've never had problems producing a 'w' sound, which requires the movement of the lips. Incidentally, I've never had trouble producing a 'b' sound, or 'p' sound, which also require the movement of the lips.
But for the life of me, I cannot whistle.
I know! Getting a child who has difficulty with /w/ to whistle is like telling a child who wants to learn to play the piano to just practise typing on a type writer to improve their finger tone. Even if the difficulty IS caused by a lack of muscle tone (after a stroke, for example), evidence shows that non-speech exercises don't help with speech intelligibility. Ergh!
ReplyDeleteOh Mos - it doesn't take much to get you angry. Perhaps you just simply don't like whistling but if you can say your 'w's I'm confident that it'd only take you five minutes to learn to whistle. While expertise can be about qualifications, it is about achieving high levels of experience, functional knowledge and communication abilities. I certainly claim no expertise at linguistics but am comfortable to claim expertise with voice and speech. There is a small group of amateur agitators trying to contest this.
ReplyDeleteDean Frenkel
I may not be able to whistle, but I certainly can sigh...
ReplyDeleteAmos Teo - are you a man or a leaf? You certainly are a pathetic excuse for a human. Just because you lack the coordination to whistle doesn't mean that you can't pronounce your 'w's. It would take less than 5 minutes instruction to teach you the basic skill of whistling. It is not at all preposterous to suggest that whistling may have helped to train humans to use their lips for speech.
DeleteI can't whistle, and believe me I tried... much to the amusement of all my colleagues during my music degree! I can pronounce my W's with very decent competence however!
ReplyDeleteHowever, I can't click my fingers nor roll my R's... are they related?
Amos, this happens to be the first link to my name on google. If it remains the case next week, you shouldn't be surprised to find your name and photo with its own dubious links. Eg, when did you train in a terrorist camp? .........
ReplyDeleteYou may prefer to remove this article from the web.
Dear Mr. Frenkel (presuming that you're the anonymous poster)
DeleteRight now, if I search for your name on Google, this blog entry is number 8 on the list. (Up first are "Dean Frenkel" on MySpace, "The Guinness World Record for Longest Vocal Note", "Throat Singer" on Channel 9's Sunday programme via YouTube, "Dean Frenkel" on Move.com.au, a Crikey blog, your contributor's profile on ABC's The Drum, and a page on Overtone.cc -- all good stuff). So perhaps things aren't as bad as you think.
Nevertheless, the 8th item on Google is this blog. Originally it was just a criticism of your work, to which I'd argue Amos has a right, plus a number of replies from yourself*, to which I'd say you also have a right (and you've been given it).
But right now, it also contains a threat to publicly link the blog author to terrorism. This threat is entirely your own doing and I'd be surprised if it doesn't have more potential to damage your reputation than the original, simple criticism of your work.
Presuming that Amos doesn't cave to your threat and remove this post, and your threat (already public) does not get deleted, I think probably the wisest way for you to salvage the situation at this point might be to apologise in this forum. Not only is it a polite thing to do, but it may go some way towards repairing your reputation in the eyes of those who come across this blog in the future.
*Or anonymous contributors claiming to be yourself
All of that said - and on the original topic, which I think would be much more worthwhile discussing than any of this silly personal stuff - I do find myself wondering about how practicing or learning to whistle can help one resolve difficulties in pronouncing the "w" sound in English.
DeleteIf I examine how I use my breath, move my mouth, and use my vocal chords when I pronounce the "w" in "who", "what", "water" etc., I find it's rather different to how I use all these when I whistle.
Whilst pronouncing "w" involves rounding the lips, when I whistle they are pursed and pushed forward. Making the "w" sound only causes a very small amount of air to escape my lips, whilst whistling involves forcing the air out with much more pressure and at a constant rate for a long period of time. Also, pronouncing the "w" sound requires sound from my vocal chords whereas whistling does not.
It seems to me then that whistling and pronouncing the "w" sound are very different actions so I do wonder how practicing one can help with the other. It would be interesting if you could share your thoughts on the mechanism.
First the remark on Crikey sledging Indonesian judges, then a swathe of threats and defamatory remarks targeted at various linguists. Now with Amos being his latest target, if anyone's going to be suspected of terrorism, my money's on Dean Frenkel!
ReplyDeleteWhat bollocks and what courage (not) from Anonymous! There has not been one threat made from me, and in truth Aidan Wilson was guilty of defamation and lucky to not be sued. I have only responded to the nasty and frequently inebriated cell of arrogant feral hobby linguists who have been running a public pest campaign against me and Amos is most deserving. Also it should be noted that my last response to Amos has not been published.
ReplyDeleteDean Frenkel
Did you mean: "Amos Teo - are you a man or a leaf? You certainly are a pathetic excuse for a human. Just because you lack the coordination to whistle doesn't mean that you can't pronounce your 'w's. It would take less than 5 minutes instruction to teach you the basic skill of whistling. It is not at all preposterous to suggest that whistling may have helped to train humans to use their lips for speech."?
DeleteIt was anonymously posted as well so I can't be certain if it was from you, but it has been published above, as you can see.
I've stopped moderating all comments. Since I've allowed anonymous comments, I'd appreciate it if people could still identify themselves when they post comments, as a courtesy to both me and Mr Frenkel. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteAmos, let's remember that it was you that threw the first stone. Indeed with one exception, all the pests who have thrown the first stone at me have emerged from the same appalling Melbourne University linguistic student group of friends. It concerns that the culture in the Melb Uni Linguistics Department is so arrogant and alcohol-fueled that they would try to censor or silence those they deemed to be unqualified to contribute to the subject - when in fact their expertise on the matter falls short. Your completely unprovoked statement, "I don't want to waste my time on the internet on this guy. But I am angry...." is very hissy. I think my question "are you a man or a leaf?" is an apt question after such a pathetic offering - you over-reacted to something so minor. Then you launched into another hissy when I showed the audacity to suggest that early humans may have developed some lip control by whistling. What a hissy crime. And then you "sigh".
ReplyDeleteOh and isn't 'Dan' who is credited a few times in this segment really you???
Dean Frenkel
Dean, I will say at this point that all comments I make on my own blog are made as a logged in user and are in my own name.
DeleteNext, none of my criticisms stem from the fact that you are not a qualified linguist or speech pathologist. My criticism is of a particular claim that you've made about language, specifically about whistling. Now, if I had made that a similar claim in an academic discourse context, I would be expected to back up my claim with empirical evidence and not just personal anecdotes or observations. And even if I did have evidence, I have no doubt there would still be some disagreement. I would then have to counter with more evidence, not personal attacks on the people who disagreed with me.
I will say that I didn't completely agree with Aidan's criticism of your work in the Crikey post, but he did make a number of valid points regarding your claims. However, in your response in Crikey, when I was hoping you'd back up your claims with more evidence, you simply started to attack his character, and on quite baseless grounds - for instance, do you really have proof that Aidan is "a chronic under-achiever with a nasty chip on his shoulder" or that he "turned to dishonesty and misrepresentation" and that he didn't really go and see a phonetician? That was extremely mean-spirited on your part and really didn't advance your case. In a similar vein, you've responded to my criticism by suggesting that I can't whistle because I simply don't like whistling, before hurling insults like 'pathetic excuse for a human'.
Finally, as you may have noticed, I have not written anything about you or your work in the last 3 months. Rest assured that I have no intention of writing anymore about it in the future. However, while you are welcome to continue adding comments here, I will not take this post down simply because you disagree with the points I've made. I would also ask that you stop with the intimidation and cyber-bullying tactics.
Amos, I accept that I have been blaming all of the Melb Uni linguists as a block and that you are not personally responsible for Wilson's irresponsible claims nor for the targeting by the other pests. Indeed such was the feral nature of Wilson's attack and the disingenuous nature of his half-apology that I felt that it did not warrant the respect of directly answering his criticisms. He deserved all that he got and was lucky not to get more. If I had been bent on revenge I would followed through and used my Aboriginal friends to help me contact the Aboriginal communities he was working with and effectively ruin his good work, the same with the other linguo-pests with their contacts in Nepal, The Greens and more. From my end your missive happened at the end of a chain of attacks from these unimpressive people that began with a personal attack from Wilson and I treated you all as one block. Indeed I do not advocate intimidation nor cyber-bullying - actually I abhor it. In this case I felt I had a right to robustly defend my right to contribute to the subject in the face of your arrogant friends. Life's too short and interesting to continue with this. I hope we can all move on and believe it or not, I wish you well with your interesting work.
DeleteDean Frenkel
Loathe to risk continuing any unpleasantness after things seem to have been resolved, but I just wanted to say I'm *not* Amos. I *am* a friend of his but I was not asked to write and my opinions are my own. I'm not connected with Melbourne Uni, not in any way a linguist of any sort, and I currently live in China. (I learn Mandarin Chinese and from that point of view I'm very interested in phonics and speech so far as I would like to perfect my pronunciation.) I *was* genuinely interested in the academic question, but I think this is probably no longer the best forum to discuss it.
DeleteAll the best!
Blessings Amos!!
ReplyDeleteMr. Amos Teo,
ReplyDeleteI consider myself a very good whistler.
I am 60 years old and I remember start whistling when I was 6ish.
About 10 years ago I had a small surgery in my lower lip to remove an abscess.
The surgery was perfumed in an ambulatory in Brisbane, Australia.
After the stitches were removed I realised I barely could whistle. not to mention the high pitches and variation on swell.
Then I realised than a small nerve had been severed because I felt a little numbness on that past of my lower lip.
There was nothing I could do to “fix" that but I did not stop whistling or at least trying to whistle as before.
I did not have the proper control of the muscles.
It was very clear for me.
OK, now after 10 or so years, I have to tell you that I have recovered the control of the muscles just by trying and not bothering if my whistle was not as perfect as before.
I have to tell you that I consider my whistling is as quite close as it was before the surgery problem.
I still feel the numbness on that part of my lip but I believe I have developed the control of other parts/muscles around that area that allow me to whistle quite reasonably again.
So, even a 50 year old person can “rewire" his brain to regain control of hie lip.
How can you say one cannot?
I did not read this anywhere I am the proof one can, mr Amos Teo.